Wherein PK holds forth on sorting, mis-sorting, and so forth. Again.

[persephone_kore]

http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?postid=892802#post892802



Half the Gryffindors we know about haven't given any particular demonstrations of courage, but that doesn't mean it's not there. The ones we know best have shown courage, but have also at times done or failed to do things because they were afraid.

Percy has Slytherin characteristics. Being "evil" is not one of them. Being disloyal -- if you call it that -- does not technically make him non-Gryffindor, although suggesting it qualifies him for Hufflepuff has to have been mistyped, because it makes no sense. *g* Most of his family members do, actually. Harry does. Hermione has plenty -- especially the "any means to achieve their ends" -- look at her drugging Crabbe and Goyle (to perpetrate an impersonation, no less), setting Snape on fire, stealing ingredients; for that matter the effort she pours into her schoolwork could be interpreted as any house but Gryffindor, since it involves ambition, hard work, AND love of learning.

Those of you who have already seen me go off on How the Sorting Hat Works may wish to be excused from the rest of this post, as I'm at it again.

First of all, whether it's a good idea or not, I think that sorting was always explicitly intended to cultivate and perpetuate the house traits the student was already inclined toward. The Founders presumably selected students they already had some affinity for and trained them up, to some degree, in their own image. (Helga Hufflepuff, judging from OotP, was entirely willing to cultivate her favored qualities in just about anyone, perhaps being of the opinion that they were universally both advantageous and learnable.)

That said, particularly if you look at the OotP sorting song and the bits about how some of the Founders chose students who had already demonstrated such traits ("with brave deeds to their name," anyone? --This also makes me wonder if perhaps they started a little later), I suspect that introducing the mind-reading hat may have resulted in some surprises.

This is because the hat, having access to the students' minds, can sort on values, can sort on what isn't visible. I believe that it does so because as far as I can recall, this explains every supposed "mis-sort" I've ever seen proposed.

Crabbe and Goyle: Someone already covered this, but attaching to Draco may very well show ambition.

Draco: It has been pointed out that people who are highly placed already do not tend to be ambitious; it has also been pointed out that the Malfoys do not entirely act like old money. Either way, however, I think it's very likely that Draco looks on being cunning and being willing to do whatever's necessary to get what you want as a far preferable lifestyle to being courageous and daring, academic, or just and loyal.

Hermione: She has traits for all houses, clearly. Her line about Gryffindor sounding like the best house, however, strongly suggests that it's the one whose mindset, at least in some ways, most appeals to her. (The crusader aspect of her personality might come in here.) Her line to Harry about how friendship and bravery are more important than books and cleverness doesn't suggest to me that she doesn't value books and cleverness -- in combination with her actions, it suggests that they're a very important thing in her life and may get the most time, but she considers other things to be of higher importance -- though I doubt she was expecting some of them to be called for quite so much. Actually, that line is about even between Gryffindor and Hufflepuff, but it appears that Gryffindor was uppermost in her mind.

Pettigrew: Ah, Pettigrew. First of all, I'm going to note that some people say his incompetence would suit him for Hufflepuff. There are two problems with this. First, incompetence does not suit someone for Hufflepuff. Second, he isn't incompetent. We've been told he is, repeatedly, but not once have we seen him actually screw up a spell -- and he's done some powerful and complicated magic!

Why is he a Gryffindor, though? He strikes me as someone who admires bravery and daring but has never, ever felt his own courage to be adequate -- and because it was his priority he did indeed belong in Gryffindor, but it wasn't good for him. It could have been, perhaps -- it could have drawn him out, and actually perhaps to some extent it did, considering he ran around as a rat with a werewolf, stag, and dog, any of whom could have squished him -- but while I'm sure the blame is spread out quite a bit, the ultimate effect was that he continued to think of himself as inferior in courage, as never being able to measure up -- and therefore he acted like a coward.

I don't think Percy's evil. I can see how he would drive other members of his family crazy and vice versa; I think Arthur's concern that Fudge meant him as a spy was understandable given the circumstances, and so was Percy's hurt and fury and indignation at the suggestion he hadn't gotten it on his own merits. I think his family does care for him -- and vice versa -- and aren't showing it well, and that there's a lot of hurt on both sides now even if some of them won't acknowledge it.

And I think he probably would have done just fine in Slytherin, but considers courage more important than ambition -- even if we've mostly seen him in the context of working on his career, where naturally ambition comes up more.

Edited to add: It's also worth noting that there seem to be a few people under the impression that "loyal" only means "loyal to the protagonist and/or his side." This would be the contingent who accuse the Hufflepuffs of being disloyal for siding with Cedric in GoF or being wary of Harry when they think he's hurt one of their own in CoS. Considering Harry has evidently managed to get to fifth year without learning all the names of the Hufflepuffs with whom he takes Herbology -- which I understand, I'm awful connecting names and faces -- I seriously doubt they knew him well enough to be loyal to him, especially in CoS, and obviously Cedric would supersede him even if they did. Percy could be being loyal to his employers, though he wasn't to his family; Marietta wasn't loyal to the rest of the DA, but perhaps she was trying to be loyal to her mother. This doesn't necessarily mean either of them is right -- morally or in the sense of being correct -- but simply saying they're disloyal is perhaps a bit simplistic.

Comments

[ashtur.livejournal.com]

I've posted my thoughts to SQ on a number of occasions.

You look at the various "traits" of the houses, and Hufflepuff seems to stand a hair apart. You can argue that the other three houses "defining traits" are all aspects of their personality coming in. Someone is already smart, or ambitious, or brave. Hufflepuff strikes me as a house that seeks to develop traits more (though I can see any of the four doing that to a certain extent). So, in that sense, you can say the hat is looking for traits to draw out.

However, I also strongly feel (as you mention with Hermione) that nearly every character has a primary and a secondary house (and in some cases, even aspects of all four. The Hat debates between putting harry in 3 different houses. Hermione shows all four houses (though the muggleborn thing makes her questionable for Slytherin). Ron is a Gryffindor-Hufflepuff, Percy is a Gryffindor-Slytherin. Ernie is a Hufflepuff-Slytherin. It just means that their personalities are more complex and layered than simply assigning them to a given house.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Percy is ambitious enough to be a Slytherin, but he's also loyal, not disloyal, I think. His loyalty to Crouch blinds him to Crouch's treatment of him. His loyalty to Fudge blinds him to what's really going on with the Ministry and Umbridge and Harry and Voldemort.

[ashtur.livejournal.com]

Agreed, but disloyalty isn't part of Slytherin (of necessity). While loyality is part of the Hufflepuff ethos, one part of Gryffindor is "honor", which accounts for his misplaced loyality. I don't buy the all Slyth are evil thing.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry if I wasn't clear. The loyalty/disloyalty thing is why I place him alternately in Hufflepuff - has nothing to do with Slytherin. But I agree with your equating loyalty and honor as a Gryffindor thing.

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

I think a student can also have or value Hufflepuff traits going in, but OotP in particular strongly supports your idea that it was founded with the idea of developing them. I imagine all the other Founders also had every intention of encouraging their favored traits, but were less inclined to start from scratch. :)

I remember your secondary-house theory. It does work out nicely in a lot of cases -- and I seem to remember you having trouble giving Draco a secondary house, but it occurs to me he does have mild traits of each of the other four, or might. He's loyal to his father, has a certain amount of daring, and... well, there seems to be some debate whether he came in second to Hermione or she was just the one Lucius picked to hold up as an embarrassing example. *G*

I do enjoy picturing the Founders arguing over students. I suppose perhaps at first students were hand-picked and perhaps even claimed before they ever arrived, but whenever one wasn't... Sorting must have been a very unnerving experience under such circumstances. :)

[ashtur.livejournal.com]

I'm having enough trouble finishing my current story, and now you've just given me a severe plot bunny! *ROFL*

I just hope for the poor kids sake that they kept their wands put away during the "debate"

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

I can't truthfully say I'm sorry about the plotbunny, so I won't. :)

Oh dear. I was thinking being argued over would be bad enough. Dueled over... heeeee.

[dreagoddess.livejournal.com]

Hmph. I think picturing the Founders arguing over students is just silly. These are four very powerful, very dignified witches and wizards. They wouldn't behave like silly children. Sorting was always a very solemn and dignified occasion. *haughty sniff*

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

*giggle*

[dreagoddess.livejournal.com]

Which reminds me. I need to get back to Hatbabble. Salazar's still pouting and Godric's about to claim the first of his many victories this year. :)

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*annoyed* I just lost a MASSIVE comment. nng.

Anyway, firstly I agree with what you've said. Nicely put. Secodnly, and expansion:

"Being disloyal -- if you call it that -- does not technically make him non-Gryffindor, although suggesting it qualifies him for Hufflepuff has to have been mistyped, because it makes no sense."

To me, this action of Percy's seem more brave than disloyal. Certainly he's disloyal to his family. But Sirius was exactly the same- and no-one's questioning, for example, that Sirius' actions were very brave. Going against your family to the point of ostracism? That's tough! Especially for a family like the Weasleys, who are so numerous that, at one point or another, someone's always talking to you. So to me, although I don't like his actions (especially the letter to Ron), I have to say that going by his actions, Percy is at least as much a Gryffindor as Sirius is. He's misguided, I think at least part in a reaction to his family and the pressures implicit in an over-achieving family where you're the odd one out (Bill and Charlie, fred and George, Ron and Ginny- who does Percy play with?)- but ultimately, in supporting the Ministyr, he thinks he's doing the right thing.

I knwo that for many actiosn (murder, etc) I would not be happy with that for an excuse. But in this case I think it's important.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

Pettigrew: Ah, Pettigrew. First of all, I'm going to note that some people say his incompetence would suit him for Hufflepuff. There are two problems with this. First, incompetence does not suit someone for Hufflepuff. Second, he isn't incompetent. We've been told he is, repeatedly, but not once have we seen him actually screw up a spell -- and he's done some powerful and complicated magic!

THANK YOU!!!!

Excuse the shout, but the notion that Peter is incompetent (most recently raised on fanficrants by someone asserting that becoming an animagus can't be too hard, if Peter can do it) makes me the tiniest bit crazy. Granted, Sirius says it, but two things come into play. First, Sirius (like James) was a top-of-the-line genius as far as his academic work goes, at least according to teachers. He aces everything without studying and is widely acknowledged to be magically very powerful. Next to him, a reasonably good wizard and decent student would probably look (and feel) doltish. Second, Sirius feels betrayed by Peter, and is spewing the most hurtful things he possibly can.

I'd say that Peter, using your dual house idea, is a Gryffindor/Hufflepuff, not because of any failing, but because he seems to seek out connections with people more than he seeks out his ambitions or his studies (from what we know; it was Remus, not Peter, who was worried about getting studying done in the Pensieve scene). Later, as Scabbers, he is very attached to the Weasleys, and does in fact attack Goyle (or was it Crabbe) when he was stealing Ron's food. He wouldn't have made a good 'Puff--his loyalty can be shifted--but he has that factor in his personality. He's certainly doing his darnedest to prove loyalty to Voldemort... while, I would add, at least making a passing attempt to keep up his life debt to Harry (trying to suggest that Voldemort use someone else). And Peter does exhibit bravery, albeit of a fairly gruesome sort, in cutting off first his finger, then his hand. In his "Of A Sort" segment (yes, I really am still writing), I'm basically going to have him petition for Gryffindor by telling the Sorting Hat, "I broke my ankle last summer and I didn't cry at all."

You're right--I can imagine the surprise when the Hat began to sort eleven-year-olds who look on the outside like Hermione and McGonagall in Gryffindor, while a completely flaky chick like Luna is dropped into Ravenclaw, and a surly little twit like Zacharias Smith becomes a Hufflepuff.

[ashtur.livejournal.com]

There is canon that Peter is the least talented of MWPP, and also that Voldemort looks down on his skills (in his speech at the end of GoF). That being said, how much of that is a result of actual "lacking" in his skills, and how much of that is the fact that his personality would lead one to underestimate him? Looking at Peter in the Pensieve scene, you would get the impression that he's pretty much a loser, and presumably incompetant, even though you see no true evidence of his talent in any way shape or form. The most you can see is that he has the attributes of a fawning syncophant. Likewise, it's very possible that Voldemort made the same assumption concerning Peter's talents from the shortcomings that he saw in Peter personally. The only true judgement we have of his talent was that he didn't work up to McGonagall's specs, not only by not being as good as the other three, but also that she was "sharp" with him at times. All that being said, when we do see him doing things, it's clear that he was at least above average in skill, all things told.

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

I think you're quite right in pretty much all of this.... It seems worth noting to me as well, though, that Voldemort, while definitely contemptuous, is also relying rather heavily on Peter's skills -- or had been up to that point. Granted, this seems to have been primarily because he didn't have anybody else, but presumably if he'd really expected Peter to screw things up wherever possible, he'd have held off on the rebirth spell. I suppose it's possible the thing is relatively foolproof, but I'd be surprised.

[ashtur.livejournal.com]

He did have someone else, he had Barty Jr. While the logistics of getting Barty to the "ceremony" would have been touchy, it could have been done if Voldemort had absolutely felt that he needed a more reliable wizard to do the job. For that matter, from what we see of Barty, he would have been enraptured at the idea of sacrificing a hand for the sake of his master. So, that points towards Peter being considered good enough for the job.

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. I'd forgotten about him, or at any rate that it might have been possible to get him away from his Moody act to perform the spell.

Hmm. I wonder if he made his own Polyjuice or if Peter did that too?

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

I kind of liked Zacharias -- for one thing, it was funny, and while he did seem to be being contrary on purpose, I'd be surprised if he was the only one who wondered if spells they'd seen in second year dueling club -- with Lockhart! -- were really going to do a lot of good against Voldemort. (I've seen fans complain bitterly about the DEs' choice of spells -- particularly the limited use of Unforgivables, with Tarantallegra -- bother, that doesn't look right -- as an alternative. Personally I think that particular hex, uncountered, could be related to the stories where people are forced to dance themselves to death. Still, it wasn't an entirely unreasonable question. Some of Zach's other questions, I'll grant....)

Of course, if I were in Hufflepuff and it got half the flak at Hogwarts as in fanon, I'd probably be inclined to be grumpy at Gryffindor's star seeker myself. ;) Petty, I realize.

I should point out the dual house idea is Ashtur's, just for the sake of clarity. I'd feel vaguely guilty otherwise. :)

I think I remember that post from fanficrants -- I thought about jumping in, but for some reason I didn't. I'd also have ended up taking issue with the idea that everybody must necessarily want to be able to turn into an animal if at all possible. *g* I'd guess, actually, that it's one of those things that's within reach for the majority of the (wizarding, obviously) population but requires a lot more work than it's worth to most people. (It's also possible that most don't want to do the necessary paperwork to register and don't want to take whatever risk might exist in not registering.)

I kind of hope Peter's biting... um, I'd have to check too, I think Goyle... does come back in somehow. It's another instance of physical courage, as well.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

I've seen fans complain bitterly about the DEs' choice of spells -- particularly the limited use of Unforgivables, with Tarantallegra -- bother, that doesn't look right -- as an alternative.

Yeah, I've seen that, too. My theory is pretty much that the Unforgiveables require, as Barty, Jr, said, a great deal of magic behind them. We haven't seen Unforgivables thrown in the heat of battle by anyone other than Voldemort. They probably take quite a lot of concentration and even mental relaxation. They may not be available in the arsenal for a quick and dirty duel. Where as Tarantellegra, a spell that second years can do, is always easy to throw.